HP podcast episode 10: child led vs. play based
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[00:00:00] Hello, Samuel Broden. Hello there, Kristen. Hello, Kristen.
I got a question from a listener. Ooh. And I love that. They would like to know, we can talk about difference between. Play-based and child led, if there is a difference. Mm mm And I haven't spent any time thinking through this. That's interesting. So I'm really excited to reflect on this and dive into this with you.
So think, let's define 'em. So to me, play-based means that children spend the majority of the day in play, in self-guided, self-chosen, intrinsically motivated, process-based. Time spent Yep. In environments that are prepped for them to mm-hmm. Like peak curiosity and discovery. and child led means that it, the environment.
Okay. So I don't even know if I've actually ever defined [00:01:00] child led. So to me, child led would mean that it's not controlled by the adult. Right. The day is not controlled by the adults in the room. the time is not controlled. Mm-hmm. By the adults. The environment is not controlled by the adults. The learning is not controlled by the adults.
It's really controlled by each child themselves and as a group, collectively as a community. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maybe. What do you, what do you think, I mean, it's so funny because how would you define, you define both of them too. How would you define 'em? So play-based, yeah. For me, play-based is kind of the same, like play is the foundation and the majority of our day.
The children are playing and we help to kind of enhance their play with, you know, our adult minds by listening to the things they're doing and, introducing new things to them. But the, the day is we're [00:02:00] playing all day long. and child led is basically the children are choosing how they learn, what they learn.
How they play, where they play, what they play with. there's lots of conversations I feel like in a childhood environment where we're asking the children what they want to do. We're asking them what they're interested in. we're checking in with them about like, are you enjoying this? Is this something that you want to continue doing?
we're observing them and, and using those observations to kind of guide new ideas with them. But it's interesting because. I don't really know if there's like a distinct difference between the two or they are somehow intertwined or, I think they're intertwined because I think you can't, yeah, like they're trying to think like you can't be play-based without being child led.
Exactly. And if your program is child led, then it's gonna be play based. It's gonna be play most of the time. That's what children do. yeah, I always, honestly, I, so it's very, very connected and I'm always wondering [00:03:00] if so what confuses me around child led I think when, even to this day, so maybe we can work through this a little bit, is that people say, oh, you need to plan around their interests at a child led program plan around their interest.
And it's like, Yes. And like also child has different interests. Like you can find a group that collectively might be interested in learning about cheetahs or giant squids, but like will the whole class be interested in that? Not right. how do you feasibly plan in a child led way when we're talking about planning for their interests, when there's so many.
I don't know, is it like this dream world that we've dreamed up as far as like, ooh, emerging curriculum and follow the children's lead and yeah, I've got 20 in my class. How am I gonna pick out every single [00:04:00] child's interest and develop a whole based on what each child is really interested in learning, feel like there's this, maybe this false, I don't know. It's confused me a lot. I never really said it out loud until now that like, it's just confusing me. Like I don't. Fully understand it. Yes, I did operate a play-based program that's very child led. Yes, we did try to plan around interest, but I don't know that we ever did an amazing job because there's probably children that were super quiet that we really never knew their full on interest.
Yeah, like I don't, I don't know. I would say so for me, a child led program or a child led classroom has, I'm trying to think of the best way to say this. So yes, every child is gonna be interested in different things. Some child, children will be interested in the same things. So [00:05:00] for me, for an example, what I would do is I have things set out for the children that I think they'll enjoy.
Let's just say we're starting from there. Beginning, right? I don't know these kids. So I'm setting out things that I think that they'll enjoy, right? And I just let them play for a few days and I don't have a plan. And we kind of just play. And I watch the children, I listen to them talk, I talk with them.
And then I kind of see what they're interested in. Then we have conversations about what they're interested in, and then let's say a lot of them say they're interested in planting whatever, so then we'll start planting. But then if I'm noticing that other children are not interested in planting, then those children are free to find their interest right there.
There's no need for them. Mm-hmm. To be involved in this. Activity that we're doing if they're not interested in it. So having [00:06:00] conversations with them about, this is what we're doing. We kind of talked about this a lot. If you wanna do this, if you don't wanna do this, that's totally fine. You can find something that interests you or you can talk to me about something that interests you.
Mm-hmm. And we can kind of figure out how to do that. Right. Um,
for me, I am always just a fan of. Just coming into the day with the children and not knowing what's gonna happen happen, and not knowing what to expect and just, yeah. Letting, I love that whatever happen, happen and not really planning anything. Um, the most plan maybe like if I hear, watch the environment.
Yeah. And then if I hear them like, okay, so you know when the one year when we did, like, we had chicks and ducks and stuff, right? So obviously there was planning in that. Right? But that was because. We had conversations about that and there were things that I had to do to get that done just as the adult, right?
Yeah. So that's kind of the extent of the planning, but I [00:07:00] don't like going into the day kind of expecting anything to happen or planning for anything to happen because in my mind, a child-led environment is led by the children. So I'm not bringing any, any like, Planned ideas or anything into it? Yeah.
Yeah. I am letting them kind of come up with the ideas and if there are things that they have ideas about that they don't really know how to fulfill those ideas, or they don't really know how to like, expand on those ideas, that's kind of where I could step in and be like, okay, well, you know, I've, I've had a lot more experience than all of you, so here's some of my ideas on how we could make this happen.
Um, let's talk through this and figure it out. Um, But I feel like there's such this idea of like, even if you're, even if you're trying to be very play-based and very child-led, there's still all those things underneath, right, of like, I need, I need to plan something. I need to have a lesson plan. I need to have this.
[00:08:00] I know that I shouldn't, but I feel like I still need something because I feel like, yeah, I know if I'm, if I feel like I can't just let the children do whatever they wanna do because that's, that's. Kind of a misconception about both of those types of programs, right? Is like if you're play based or child led, that the children are just doing whatever they want to do, which is true, they are doing whatever they want to do, right?
But it's, it's, it's what we've created by conversations and by respect and by all these things that we offer the children where the space is. Their space. Right? Yeah. It's not, it's not my, it's not my space. It's not my environment. It's not my classroom because one day I'm gonna leave. Right. I'm not gonna be there forever.
Yeah. And the children who are there are still gonna be there. Um, the space is not about what I want it to look [00:09:00] like or what I want in it. It's about working with the children to create something that they. Feel is theirs. Um, and so like it's, people always like, look at me strangely, um, when my answer to these things is like, don't do anything.
Don't, don't do anything. Talk to the kids, watch them play. Let them play all day long. Um, yeah, let them take them outside all day long. Don't plan anything just. Watch what happens and see what that feels like, you know? Because to me that's what a true play-based childhood space is. It's not a space for me to bring my ideas of what the children should be doing, and it's a space for me to.
See what the children can do and see what they can teach me I love. And see what they can teach each other and [00:10:00] themselves and all of those things. Right. And so I don't really feel like there's, I don't really feel like there's really a difference. I mean, obviously there probably is a difference if you go out to actual programs because there's a lot of programs out there who say that they are play-based and, and you go there and they have like an hour of free play time.
Yeah. Yeah. That's not what that is. Right. Or there's places who no 'cause based in play means that that hello will be the foundation of your program, not just an hour of the day. And it's just, it's kind of one of those things where I feel like it's becoming a little bit of a buzzword with programs. Yeah.
Yeah. And they start to see like, oh, maybe this is what people want, so maybe we should just rephrase what we are and not really change a lot about what we do. Right? Yeah. So, but for me, I. Like you said, I don't think that you can have one without the other. And I think that they both coexist really beautifully together and [00:11:00] they, they, they feed into each other.
Right? And so let's say I feel like having a play-based environment is, On paper, a lot easier for people to digest and a lot easier for people to understand and do than having an environment that is truly led by the child. Mm-hmm. Because of all these ideas of control and all those things. Right. But I think that if you're having a play-based program and you're noticing that your day is play, that's what the children are doing.
It, it's going to lead you into being child led, because that's what play is, right? Because if I am dictating what's happening, then they're not playing. And Yes. So if we're having like true play, then it is gonna be child led. Mm-hmm. So I, I, I don't really feel like there is, Much of a difference, at least with my idea of what those two things are.
Yeah, same. I'm sure there's a difference. They hold hands in actual places, but Yeah, [00:12:00] exactly. Yeah. Um, you can't have one with the other of the other. You really can't. And you can't truly have one with the the other. Right. Because truly, yeah. Yeah. You could say whatever, but yeah. It's, it's very hard. It's a very hard thing for people to think about doing and for people to actually do because there's still so many of these kind of embedded ideas in our heads of like what we're supposed to be doing with the kids or what the children should be doing.
Um, and so even if we're like, oh yeah, we want the children to, to play all day long, like there's still this idea of like, I, I, I need to be in charge of something. I need to be in. Yeah. I need to plan something. I need to control something. I need to do something. That's like, I think the foundation of all of play-based, like play-based child-led environments is the found, like [00:13:00] the thing you need to get rid of before you can do anything else as adult control.
Yep. Like you need to, like, that is the thing that you have to like point out first. Grab on to reflect on and then like throw it out the window, is what I'm realizing. Mm-hmm. And I think totally that is something that I've kind of like skipped over a lot in the past is like mm-hmm. That need for adult control.
Woo. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's hard, it's hard to get over that because a lot of, a lot of us. Have a need to control just in general. Right. Um, I of there's good re have you ever read any like, adult books on like why people need control? Is there any But I probably should. I know I'm gonna like, I probably should because see if I can find something.
I'm a little, I'm a little bit, um, I have a little bit of an issue with control. Um, [00:14:00] I always have. And it was, it's hard for me still sometimes with kids and it's especially hard for me sometimes in my own life. Um, you know, kind of just feeling like I need to control things and when things Yeah. Are not able to be controlled, it causes a lot of anxiety and a lot of stress and all those things.
Right. But it's like we just have to think about like where that comes from. Right. So let's say, okay, growing up. It was very turbulent and there wasn't a lot of like routine. There wasn't a lot of, I didn't, I never knew what was gonna happen. Um, those types of things. And so now as an adult, I feel like in order for me to feel safe, I need to know everything that's happening and I need to make sure that I can control what's happening.
But then when we dive deeper into that, and we realize, especially over the last few years that. We literally don't have control over a lot of [00:15:00] things that happen Yeah. To us, around us. Um, and, and so just being able to kind of understand that a little bit and at least like try to be a little bit comfortable with that, um, is, is a really good kind of first step to take, um, be.
Because the things that we are, the way that we are as people is gonna bleed into the work that we do with the children. Um, just because it's, it's very personable work that we do. And so who we are is gonna come out. And so if we don't wanna have an environment where we're controlling the children or we're feeling like we need to have that control, then we need to kind of work on.
Those issues in our own life. And a lot of times, I mean, for me, I feel like if I hadn't ever worked with children or this wasn't [00:16:00] what I did, I don't know, I probably wouldn't be who I am. I. Because a lot of the work that we do with children is also kind of healing work for ourselves and Yeah, especially kind of healing work for like how our own childhoods were and you know, all of those things really kind of, uh, bleed into each other.
I feel like. Have you ever read, don't get So upset by Tamar Jacobson? No. Oh, that's a really good one. It's actually meant for early childhood educators and people who work with young children, and it's. Figuring out your own past and like how that affects the work that you do with young children. Yes.
That's literally exactly, that's exactly it. You know, it's, you have, you have to do that work. Um, and it's, it's really hard, but that's part of, you know, what we do. And being able to kind of recognize your childhood and [00:17:00] maybe revisiting some things that maybe aren't great. Um, is is important to do, not just for your work with kids, but just for yourself too.
Um, yeah, just, just, just for yourself because I don't know, it's interesting because so much if we really start to like, think and reflect, we're like, oh wow. So that's why I'm this way, or that's why I think this way, or that's why I feel this way. And then it also helps us to think too, like, okay, I understand that those things I.
Are coming from things that have happened to me in my childhood. Okay. Now I'm working with children who are in their childhood. Mm-hmm. So let me figure out what I can do that's not going to kind of create the same thing that, the same way that I am, or, you know, whatever. Um,
yeah. That, that reflection is just so important because there's so much control. [00:18:00] Um, In early education, and there's so much control that adults feel like they need to have, and whether they're teachers or parents or grandparents or guardians or whatever, there's a lot of control that they feel like they need to have, and then it.
I don't know. It's just interesting because if we really think about it and the children aren't seeing that and they're experiencing adults who need a lot of control, then they're gonna say, well, this is, this must be how I need to be as an adult. I need to figure out how to control things. And then when they get to be an adult and they realize that there's so much that they can't control, that leads to a lot of.
Kind of self-sabotage or any of these feelings of anxiety and all those things that we feel, right when we realize we can't control [00:19:00] things. But if we, if we as adults recognize that and we try to give up that control, the children are gonna see that and they're going to be brought up in a different environment than we were.
And yeah, that need for control maybe won't be as strong. Yeah.
Their lives will be better. Hmm. Yeah. But yeah, so I don't, I don't really think that there is a, a difference back to the original topic between those two things. Um, yeah, I, I definitely think that. They, they commingle. I definitely think that you can't have one without the other. And I definitely think that if you are trying to do one, you're gonna end up doing the other one as well.
Exactly. Yeah. But you have to, to, you have to really think about it before you [00:20:00] decide to do it, because it is, it's, it's has the potential to be frustrating and hard for the adults. Not only the adults that are doing it, but then you also have to think about having conversations with the other adults about why we're doing it this way.
Why is this important? So I think that it's important if you're thinking about creating a classroom or a program or an environment that is play-based in child-led, that you really do this kind of work, um, so that you can create a space that is truly both of those things because you can't have. You can't have that space if you have a overwhelming need to control things because it's not, it's not gonna work.
Nope. Well, thanks for hashing that out with me because girl, yeah, that's very interesting. I've actually never [00:21:00] thought about those two things in that way. Um, so that's very, I'm very glad that someone asked that because I haven't really thought about it. Neither have I. I know. Yeah. But yeah, just, just work on, work on that control thing.
And it's an ongoing process, right? Because mm-hmm. I still work on those things, right. I still work on those things in my own life, or in my work, I still work on, Ooh. Is this coming from my need to control? Am I trying to control too much? Okay. We need to be able to not only reflect before we're doing it, but we need to be able to continue to have that self-reflection as we're going on and recognize things that are kind of happening in the moment as well.
Um, Because it's definitely not something that's just gonna, like, you're gonna be like, okay, now I no longer am a control freak. Now I no longer have a need to control anything. I'm fixed. Right? Yeah. It's never gonna be that. It's, it's this ongoing process. But if we're continuing this process, the children are [00:22:00] continuing, are watching us continue this process.
We're having conversations with the children about, This is how I want our classroom to be. It's gonna be a little bit hard for me because I'm used to this, but I'm really gonna work through it. If, if, if they're hearing and seeing us do that, uh, that's a really wonderful experience and a really wonderful example for them to, to see.
You know, it's something that a lot of us didn't see out of adults when we were children, right? Mm-hmm. So, anyways, amazing. Okay. I don't know if I'm still cutting out. I hope I'm not, but. Leave us a five star review. No, you sound perfect to me. Oh, good. Oh, good. Leave us a five star review. If you're listening and you like what you hear, let us know.
If you have any questions, you can email 'em to me at hello kristen rb peterson Do com, or you can send them questions to us on Instagram, either Samuel or I so that we have some content for our podcast. [00:23:00] We need questions, so send them our way. So we love to question on. Answer it the best that we can. We would love it.
We would love it. Yeah. Yeah. All right, everybody. Have a good day. Thanks for listening. Bye.